What Comes Next

A fun song from the musical Hamilton, “What Comes Next” is the line we are focused on for the start of the 2021 leadership in AT podcast series.

Thanks Patrick Ohaver for putting it all together.

King George; What Comes Next

What comes next?? 

You have wanted to move up to a leadership position in the company, the school, or even a professional organization.

Just as a young America made the leap into independence, now you are given the opportunity to lead.

That is the question on this episode..

Do you know how hard it is to lead?

Patrick– As Former supervisor for a hospital Outreach based program I was given the task of leading approximately 25 athletic trainers. Some of these athletic trainers were my peers and that in itself is a difficult part to lead your own peers.I really resonated with this song in Hamilton as I knew it would be difficult to lead however I did not realize the full extent until I was in that situation. It is difficult to lead and not just your peers but to lead a cohesive group of athletic trainers.

 I was fortunate enough to have mentors that were in leadership positions and I observe them through my career taking mental notes on what I would do in certain situations how I would overreact how I would respond however I learned so much during my tenure as the supervisor of Athletic Training Services and dealt with a lot of specific leadership challenges. 

Patrick — Another point in King George's song what comes next really struck me was when your people say they hate you don't come crawling back to me. Now as a recovering people pleaser, I strive to make everyone feel Equitable and try to look for the win-win. However, during my time I discovered win-win just doesn't work out sometimes. When you have to lead a large group you are not going to please everyone now. I would not say that my employees “hated me “ however some decisions that were made did not meet with high favor.

I can recall a time when we sent out an employee satisfaction survey. It was a sort of 360-degree look at our leadership team.

 Through the eyes of the employees and I was expecting an overall positive response however, the amount of negative response was shocking and really caused a point of reflection and revaluation of my leadership style and our leadership team’s style.

 I was fortunate enough to work with two other athletic trainers in the leadership team. We assisted each other and each had our own strengths and weaknesses in the leadership team. However, that employee survey was a watershed moment for me and my leadership style.

Have you had an employee survey or an evaluation done on you that was not what you expected and did it change your outlook?

George Washington states – “Winning was easy, leading is harder”-

This point in the musical also echoes a similar thought that getting to the top may be easy however leading is harder.

Leading your peers is very difficult. We can look back at a recent Facebook post in the Secondary School group where an employee was ranting to her “friend” who was in an administrative position about the organization. I am not sure what was said or how it was said however the other party deemed it necessary to inform her superiors and her subordinate was reprimanded.

There's a good book called “From buds to boss” by Guy Harris and Kevin Eikenberry.  It's a good book and help me get some perspective in my early supervisory times.

Being the boss isn't all Fame and Glory. Some people want that prestige and that title however, if you're not prepared, then it may be more of a detriment than an aid.

Call to action:

Were you ever on your own?  I recently heard from a long-time listener Caleb who was out in China as an AT and he was on his own for a while.  Share your story with us.

Contact Us

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John – Twitter

Jeremy – Twitter

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Athletic Trainer to Athletic Director – 477

How can I become an Athletic Director?

Many ATs have moved on to Administration.  Ross Cooper is an Athletic Director and Athletic Trainer for Detroit County Day Schools.

John Ciecko gets to the point to figure out how he got there and how you can follow Ross's path.

Ross Cooper; Athletic director; AD

Here are a few key points from Ross Cooper

  • Experienced ATs already perform many of the duties of an Athletic Director
  • You have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone
  • Exposure to multiple leaders and leadership styles is beneficial
  • Self-Reflection is crucial
  • Relationships with each person are important – never know who is watching
  • Be a good listener

Ross also mentioned he took the schedules and policies and made them all digital.  Using a system like Dragonfly MAX can help an Athletic Trainer reduce paper work, streamline the PPE process and improve communication with coaches, parents, and athletes

Want to reach out to Ross?

Connect with him on Linkedin

Email him

Have some praises?

Send them to John on twitter

Got complaints?

I'll take those


State Association Advisory Committee – 475

What is the State Association Advisory Committee?

Mike Van Bruggen joins the podcast lounge live in New Orleans to discuss the NATA's State Association Advisory Committee or SAAC.
The SAAC exists to walk along side the state association and help unify AT across all states.
Mike share how the NATA is trying to build unity and support the efforts of each state as our profession moves forward.

Were are we?

We are broadcasting live from the 2018 NATA expo in New Orleans.
We used Facebook live, YouTube Live, Instagram Live and even periscope to stream as many of the NATA 2018 Expo Interviews as possible.

I would not be at NATA without these folks:

DragonFly MAX  – simplified sports medicine
Frio Hydration – superior hydration products.
Check out Hoist to help maximize performance

I want your feedback

Hit me up on Twitter @MrJeremyJackson

Director of Sports Medicine Kurt Andrews – 469

Who is Kurt Andrews?

Director of Sports Medicine for Sporting KC Kurt Andrews is a husband, Athletic Trainer and pursuer of knowledge.

Kurt Provides leadership to the Sports Medicine team that protects and prepares the Sporting Kansas City soccer players.

As director you also have to plan and prepare them team, practice procedures and EAPs and coordinate Doctors, PTs, EMTs, Massage Therapist and all other medical team members.

Kurt also is a leader in PSATS or Professional Soccer Athletic Trainers.

Leadership Series

John Ciecko assembled an outstanding lineup to cover the various aspects of Leadership in AT.

Check out our whole #LeadershipSeries as we apply these principles to Athletic Training and various settings.

Books we recommend

Leadership Series; Extreme Ownership, John Maxwell

Extreme Ownership

Dichotomy of Leadership

21 Irrefutable Laws of leadership

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School Health

Contact Us

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Female AT Struggles – 131

Sonia Gysland has broken the ranks of professional football; Dawn Stuckey is a head Athletic Trainer at Rice University; Christina Cope is an Athletic Trainer at Klein High School.  All three have teamed up to discuss some of the struggles for female Athletic Trainers.

Thanks for the special contributions from @FemaleATProbs

Top 10 reasons it is so tough being a female athletic trainer:

10. Apparently Spice Girls music is not appropriate pre game music
9. Wearing make up means we’re trying to impress someone
8. Not wearing make up means we’re either sick or very tired (even when we’re neither.)
7. Football/wrestling coaches think we know nothing about football/wrestling
6. Being asked to homecoming, prom, or any other school function is not what we had in mind when we go on dates…

Find the full list in the Show Notes 131

U of H MAT

Video episode of 131

Relationships Between a Coach and Athletic Trainer – 122

Robbie McFarlan has been an AT for five years, but has had a very rare path to understanding the mind of a coach.  His advice “Stop and try to understand where they are coming from before you take it personal” Check out our conversation about how each of has failed and learned a lesson the hard way about interacting with coaches.

Frio Hydration

Thanks to  JJ Worthen for allowing us to use his music.

Show notes for Episode 122

Masters of Athletic Training at U of H


Physeal Elbow Injuries with Dr Crumbie – 97

Physeal Injuries of The Elbow With Dr. David Crumbie – 97

Thanks to Morgan Wilson Music for allowing us to use parts of her songs.

Here is our interview with Dr. David Crumbie.  Since this recording comes from a live conference, some elements are lost due to lack of visual props and some crowd noise can be heard.  The stellar content more than makes up for the difference in sound quality.

Bob Marley allowed us to record and interview the guests of the Memorial Hermann 13th Annual Sports Medicine Update.  In the course of two days we conducted about 24 interviews, streamed live for about 16 hours, and had a lot of help from Dr. Josh Yellen, Dr. Mark Knoblauch, Bill Hale, former student / future Athletic Trainer Jazmin Dozal, and current SAT Sarah Avina.

Masters of Athletic Training at U of H